He Outsold His Entire Team. His Boss Wrote Him Up.

This was right after the pandemic. He adopted the crumpled letter concept and did about 20 of them and had 17 conversations, set 12 appointments and his own company said, hey, great job, man, but you didn't hit your dial volume. They like legit. They like gave him a mark. Dude, you just heard Dale Dupree tell a story about a sales rep who sent out 20 letters, uh, booked 12 phone calls, closed three deals, and then got written up for not making enough phone calls.

Um, Dale is the founder of the Sales Rebellion. He sold copiers for. Which is not easy for for 13 years, routinely ten exiting the industry closed rates by sending out a crumpled up piece of paper that we that we talk about instead of making a thousand phone calls. Um, he was he was also the lead singer of a metalcore band.

Uh, before any of that, we got into why Dale thinks AI is making sales worse, not better. Why he'd hire a Publix bagger over somebody with a polished sales resume and what he believes is fundamentally broken about sales and sales leadership right now. So if you manage a sales team or if you are selling, uh, this one's going to hit different.

All right, man, let's dig in. Uh, Dale, love to to have you here. I there's a lot that I actually want to want to talk to you about today, but I can't leave this conversation without talking about one topic out of the gate, so I'm just going to address it head on. It's like the one that I said, dude, I've got to get Dale on here, and it's it's AI.

Why do you hate AI? Dale, what's going on? It's less about the fact that I hated more about the fact that I understand what it's doing to people, and maybe this resonates with some. It doesn't with others, and I don't really care either way. But the whole purpose of me like having the conversation, the negative showing the negative side of of AI is because I'm all I've also like throughout my life, uh, had to suffer from things that people have normalized.

And I believe that AI is one of those things that we're we're starting to depend on it to a point that like, it's changing the way we think, the way we act, the way that we are. I believe that in probably like five years at this point, maybe less, maybe 2 or 3, there will be people, not a generation, by the way. I don't believe I believe the generation coming up is leaving age.

As a matter of fact, there's a massive movement right now where kids do things like have two way radios and they have their back to like hand phones, like they can only dial through landlines and like, don't text, don't have internet access. 18 year old kids, 21 year old kids. Like this is a legitimate movement that's happening if you're not paying attention.

I'm sorry. But like the real issue that I see here is that, like, again, 4 or 5 years from now, you're going to have people that will, like, literally silo themselves into just communicating with this thing that's built to do things like make us feel good, not out of any sort of truth either, just out of the pure fact that we want to feel good about something.

So we will ask it a question. It'll, you know, perk us up. Oh, hey, that's a great question. And by the way, I just want to tell you, it's okay to ask this. You know, we're just going to perk us up. And I think that that is dangerous. I think that that ultimately, one of the best things that happens to any of us is that we get like raw, blunt feedback from people.

Hey, I just want to tell you, I didn't like this thing that you did, and that's okay. That I didn't like it. I just wanted to give you some feedback. I appreciate that kind of thing. That's helped me to grow in my life. I don't believe that AI does that for people where I love AI. Well, I think people people need to focus more on AI is just the hyper development of how it is eliminating a lot of the minute details or tasks that we have to spend so much time on as entrepreneurs or individuals in general.

And the and the the format of life and living, we can absolutely still use it. I use AI in my business all the freaking time, man. You know, we use it for a lot of different things too, but you will never see me use it in a capacity of like, man, I had a question. Let me go ask AI or I want to learn more about a specific person.

Let me go ask I you know, what I do is I call the front desk of that office. Hey, I saw that Neil said something about pickleball on a on a podcast he was on recently. I was curious, does he have his own, like, custom made paddles? Yeah. Can you imagine being the person on the other side of that phone call? Like, who is this?

You know, like, and but these are the things that we, we think that if we shortcut around them that, you know, because like most people would probably hear that and say, as an example, that person's not going to give you that information, you're wrong because I've done it and I've gotten better information, like from a human in those moments.

And again, like, it's not to say that AI is this terrible, horrible, disgusting thing. It's to say that the movement of using AI in our daily life is horrible and disgusting and a terrible thing. And I, I really think that it's dumbing down society. There's kind of two things here to me. One is you're absolutely right.

Like from a personal standpoint, um, one of my big concerns has been like thought atrophy. You know, like, I was I was listening to my kids the other day, and they're playing. They're playing a video game. And I listened to them for like an hour, and I was like, dude, you guys have not stopped talking to Alexa for an hour.

Like, every time you hit a roadblock, every time you hit this thing and they're like, hey, Alexa. And I was like, we're killing it. Like, so like done like the the whole point of the game is to play it. It's to have fun. Like, it's not to ask AI, how do I shortcut this? How do I shortcut this? You're literally taking the experience out of the thing.

Like the process is the fun. And we are, you know, like we have a ten year old and they were doing the we have like a rule like no cell phones. Like for, for the whole the whole group. But they have land phones and it's really cool to, to watch like they love the land phones. There's a personal component to it and then there's a business component to it.

Do you, do you differentiate in terms of hey, it is it's far more applicable in the business use case for short cutting administrative stuff and automating these things and helping salespeople. But over here, from a human element, we're potentially doing ourselves a disservice and forgetting how to think for ourselves.

Do you differentiate at all? Just because I don't like it doesn't mean that I don't trust it for specific things. Just like if you've got a weird uncle that shows up every Thanksgiving and, and he's, you know, talking about the political party that you disagree with, and he's loud, he's obnoxious, and he makes terrible jokes.

It like, if you were in a car crash and they were like, hey, who should we call? That's probably the person you're calling, because even though you don't like them, it doesn't mean you don't trust them. It doesn't mean that like when you're in a moment where you really need that person, that you're not going to reach out because you know that they'll do good by you or that they'll die for their the blood, you know, like that, that whole concept, I think AI has a there's a piece of it that I trust.

Right. There's a part of it that I trust or that I understand that, that we can relinquish control to to an extent without it harming us, if you will. So I it is an efficiency thing. Like more than anything, it's a it's a shortcut thing as much as it's just like I prefer, you know, the human touch and the human element around everything.

But there are some things like where I wouldn't have even known if the human did it as opposed to AI, I really wouldn't. There's that is the truth, right? So I, I for I certainly without a doubt believe that there are some things inside of business and ultimately in the way that people are building their as an entrepreneur or, you know, somebody that is startup or ultimately like the first hire for a specific thing where AI can be very helpful for the allowing you to focus more on certain tasks, especially revenue generating tasks.

But I absolutely still believe in business. There's a line that has to be drawn, quite frankly. Like right now, I think the biggest issue it's not slowing down is that, you know, like there are literal pockets and groups, massive groups of people that are just sending 30,000 to 50,000 emails a week and using like AI to do that.

And there they're saying things like, no, but we're using this, this structure of Claude, come in, Claude, and I'll send you my playbook. Right. Like, oh, like they're using this perfect structure of Claude that it actually personalizes everything and it makes it sound human. And these things are all false.

They're not true. Period. No matter how you spend that, they are not true. There is nothing about it that is good. There is nothing about this human. There's nothing about it that's personalized. It's guessing, it's manipulation. And ultimately, you know, it's lying by saying like, hey, this is Kathleen over at XYZ coming.

Now. You're not, you're you're a robot. You're not even real in the first place. And I think that that dilutes trust. And ultimately, there has to be a fine line of business where people like say no to it in some instances, such as like going to market and and writing people emails or cold calling them, um, if it if it means that you have to do less, you know, because you can't quite get as many hits out there, Uh, because you're not using AI.

Like, I think people should be okay with that and say, yeah, well, it's not going to work the way that we want it to anyway. Slash it's going to burn through our Tam. It's going to have like the the long term perspective of it is going to be terrible. And if people can really just like digest that portion of what I'm saying here, I think that's what will make the most sense to most folks.

Let me play devil's advocate. Let's say, you know, Dale, you're probably right. Um, but most people think in terms of short term, not long term. And does it help me not does it help the the greater good? Like, let's. So if I were to play devil's advocate and I said everybody else is going to do it and it's going to work and it's going to happen anyway.

So it's it's kind of irrelevant that this is happening. So aren't I missing the curve if I, if I take that approach like this guy says, I can do 50,000 emails, should I not just because just because it's the right thing to do or should I not because it doesn't work like what you're what you're saying. So I think it might take would be that like, it's the right thing to do and it doesn't work.

It's less of like, is it one or the other? And it's literally both. I think we're lying to ourselves if we say this works. And okay, so here's a great example. Okay, I have a screenshot of this, by the way, and I use it all the time when I see crappy conversations about this on the internet where a guy says, I sent 10,000 emails, I said, he goes, this works just great.

of a thousand people, right?: 2000

And I, my guy, like it. Okay, well, give me hard facts. Like how long? How many conversations does it take to get to the center of that city, pop. Like, give me more data and no one can give it. But what they said because they sent 10,000 and they got what they see as the industry standard, which and I it wasn't less than 2% was less than 5%.

And so he, he was showing us that like 5% is a really good number. And getting close to it is a really good number. And indeed in in my world, here's, here's the problem. We have a guy actually we just onboarded big organization that they're running. They're about to take over to the United States, where it's an honor to be working with these guys.

I think it was the ballpark of like 20 total crumpled letters that he said. These were big organizations, by the way, that he's sending them to. They're not just like playgrounds. They're the the largest grocery chain in Africa, the largest retail store in Africa. And now they're moving to the United States, um, retail chain, I should say, in Africa.

So this particular person is like, we sent 20 crumpled letters, we closed three deals, and we're in conversation with six other people. That's nine responses out of $0.20. So like when I see I say 10,000 emails, I just I literally have I have the worst opinion of that in regards to like a healthy outlook.

Like there's nothing healthy about it to me. So people that live in that dystopia, if you will. That's fine. If that's what they want, if that's what they want to settle for. That's fine. But so I don't I don't, in my opinion, think that people should stop doing it. Matter of fact, I love that people do it. It makes my job easier.

into these crappy results in: 2026

So, so I, I, I hate to say that like it's, it's both basically. But but it kind of is I, I just I don't think it works quite frankly at all period. I don't think it's healthy to any extent. So the, the argument there is that like, yes, if you send 10,000 emails using this one guy's playbook and you get 4.87% response rates And you're happy with that?

And you think that that is working and good for you. See you later. Think about the impression of the person that received you, the thing. And we'll I'll ask you about the crumpled letter in a second, just for for clarity. But the person that opens the crumpled letter, it's a creative, like, hey, this is my impression of that person.

Once I've opened it, I'm like, all right, this is unique. This is good. So the conversion on that and just my impression trust like all of that versus, hey, just because 4.8 people, percent of 10,000 open this thing, what did they think when they when they opened it. Because I had the reference I always uses.

It's customized and it's personalized, but it's not relevant. Like I have emails that are like, hey, Ray, I saw you went to SMU. Like I heard the Mustang party is really great. We've got this lead gen service. I'm like, that has nothing to do with that. Like you. So it's personalized. Yeah, I did go to school there.

It's completely irrelevant to this conversation. And I know that you're using for my impression of it now that you've sent it is shit like compared to a crumpled letter. So it's a what are you actually getting in return? No, I mean, honestly, I think it's like that. That perspective is the best perspective, quite frankly.

ty simple concept. So back in: 2009

So I was knocking on my door. I was, you know, I was still cutting my teeth in the copier world. So I was still learning, if you will, the ropes, but just getting better, like slowly but surely and and I, I walked in to a doctor's office where I did this cold call, and I mean this, this woman that met me at the front, you know, she just she hated salespeople was kind of the best way to, to describe it.

Like she was not having it. She, she used a lot of harsh language with me And made me feel very small, and I peed my pants a little bit. I'm sure there's a lot of people out there listening to this. They're like, oh my God, I know that feeling. That sucks. And and I kind of like, didn't want a cold call anymore. To be quite frank with you, I didn't have a run in quite that, like intense up until this point.

And, you know, and in this instance, you know, of going through this, I thought to myself, maybe I should rethink what I'm doing. Like, maybe I'm only to 70% of of quota because there's a better way to do this. Uh, you know, like, maybe I'm only at 70% of quota because I'm sticking to an old school method or I'm getting away from my authentic self.

I'm not being very genuine in the way I sell. You know, I just kind of asked some very personal questions at that point, which allowed me to open my mind up to less of like, well, what's the right strategy? And more of, well, who is Dale Dupree? Why does Dale exist? What does Dale want to accomplish? Just some very simple, basic questions that I think a lot of us ask ourselves.

You know, like how many times do you wake up, you know, on a weekly or monthly basis and say, like, who am I? And write that out? You know, and, and watch a change over the years. And, you know, how many times does a seller do that when they start their career? Like, what do I want to achieve? Because I connected to that side of me for quite.

Frankly, one of the first times.

Ever in my career, I, I was able to kind of see past the minutia of what I had bought into, and instead I had these great conversations with people that were like, dude, you're an entertainer. You have a lot of fun. You're laid back. You push the envelope on things in a good way. You know, you're not offensive, but you know you can feel that way in some instances because you're so raw and want sometimes.

And I was like, okay, cool. So maybe some self-deprecation, maybe some, you know, some things that I'd probably avoided to an extent up until that point. Let me just try to like, tap into those things. So I, I basically I wrote a little a little letter to a person that was in a like a crumpled up format on a on on that note that said, hey, 90% of the sales and marketing that comes through your front door is garbage.

And so I pre crumpled this one to make it easier for you to throw away because I care about your time. And that was like literally the message like the very choppy, you know, first iteration of the concept and, and you know and then I just said, if you finish reading this though, for some reason, here's some, some areas that I could potentially partner up with your organization to benefit you.

And had a couple small just like value proposition points, which over time have like gone to another level, you know, like quite literally. I mean, we do bullet point structures as an example now. And, you know, we say things like calling in for service is like ordering a milkshake at McDonald's. It's basically never available.

You know, just like little, little things that people can relate to through pop culture and ultimately that just they feel more human, more genuine. And that moment is what took me there, that this lady who had just cursed me out and told me to get the hell out of this office and other terrible things. That same woman was there, and this was like ten days later, two weeks just about later, and I.

I handed that same person a letter instead of saying, like, hi, this is a cold call. Basically, you know, like, and I'm trying to talk to so-and-so. I just said, could you get this a doctor for me? And she said, yeah. And I looked.

Kind of confused.

And like.

Uncomfortable. They she could see the writing. You know, she crumpled it and read it, and.

She walked away and came back and said, give me a minute or give the doctor a minute. And she complimented me. When I was sitting there, she said, hey, that was really clever, by the way. And I just had this whole different experience. And I started to realize, like, in that moment.

I have nothing to.

Lose and be people who appreciate a very genuine approach, you know, from a stranger coming to their front door as opposed to something like manufactured or based around an outline of business or like basically like boxing in the concept of communication around professionalism. I just got rid of all that stuff in my mind.

I just started thinking, like, it doesn't matter if I wear a suit and a tie. It doesn't matter if I like. I need to be kind and polite and and appropriate to people. But like, I can still be myself. I can wear my Jordans, I can wear a hat if I want to. Like, these things should be acceptable. And and if people want to perceive it differently or like judge me, that's on them.

And I don't really care. I'm completely detached from from that thought process. Yeah. And most of the time. Right. Like the people that are judging us are the people that are like in our industry. You know, they're like, salespeople shouldn't do that or look like that. It's like, okay, keep lying to everybody and feel free.

But but I unlocked something that day that changed my life. And and from there it was like, you know, I'd gone from hundreds of cold calls on a daily basis, like as a, as a quota, you know, a disciplinary, like a routine for myself to make sure I had enough business in my pipeline selling copy machines to suddenly, like, quite literally making, oh, man, like weekly, ten, maybe 15 drop ins using this concept, and I would set seven to 14 or 15 and total appointments.

You know, like quite literally every week. And and the thing was, is that I was cycling new. So if I did 10 or 15 a week, like let's just say I did ten, for argument's sake, I'd do about 40 coal calls a month, 40 coal calls with people very intentionally leaving stuff for them. And so I would talk to like 80 or 90% of these people.

And in my world, you know, everything is kind of long term, right? So people were they were open to responding to me because of the creativity. But then they were they in their mind. They were also in most cases in a current contract. It was okay to tell me like, yo, hey, great effort. Um, but also, like, they didn't have to worry about setting a meeting with me right then and there because they were like, I think we have three years left in our contract.

Why don't you get in touch with us closer to the end of our lease? You know, to which, you know, we'd have some more conversation. We could go into that, you know, whatever. Right? But like, ultimately, the idea is just that I interrupted the typical pattern so deeply entertain people connected with them on a very human level and in a genuine way.

It wasn't like a prop or some kind of gimmick. You know, ultimately is exactly how they felt is what it was. And everything that I put together was very much tailored toward the idea of like the value proposition. So I used to call my crumpled letter before I started the Sales rebellion. I called it a paper jam.

I would ask people on the phone, I would say, hey, did you get that paper jam that I left off? And and they would say that in the letter. I would say, you're probably wondering why this this piece of paper looks like you hit print and it got stuck in the fuser. And like legitimately, people laughed at that. They loved it.

They were like, yeah, man, I forget, hey, the guy is always jamming my paper and you can fix that. And, you know, like, of course I couldn't magically fix that, but I could give them things that other companies weren't and that were overlooking and that were neglecting. And because of that, I won a lot of business using a little piece of paper that was balled up.

And selling printers is hard because it's, it's it feels commoditized. And and so a lot of times the user, the customer can't really tell the difference between the products. You know, like for for them there's like a there's an outcome that's involved in. So selling in that space you've got the agreements like long term contracts.

You've got um, you know a lot like the feeling of differentiation being, being really difficult. So standing out I imagine did a like helped you a lot. So if you were selling that like if you were doing that and I came in and you wanted to coach me and said, listen, you don't need to copy me exactly. But as a sales person, here's how I would advise you to start thinking about sales, about prospecting.

Like, don't don't try to make 200 calls today. Like, let me let me just coach you to kind of come to this on your own to some degree. What would be your best advice to somebody who wanted to to replicate that level of authenticity and creativity, to get those kind of results?

So I think it's a great question. By the way, I've only been asked this question like two times out of like 400 podcasts that I've done, by the way, because I can remember the exact people that asked me. And so I kudos, because this is a great question. I think it's super important. I believe sales is the network you build.

And so when I dropped that crumpled letter off for that doctor, what really happened was it was less of like, you know what I want to buy from you? And it was more of, this is this guy's honest, he's fun, he's creative, he's caring. And I'll talk business with him for sure. But for the most part, people just wanted to get to know me better.

I know that sounds crazy, and there's a lot of VP of sales and managers that are out there that can hear me say something like this and just squirm in their seat. Oh my God, a relationship salesperson, you know, and it look, it's not I think the problem is, is that too many people put this emphasis on a relationship in sales as if it's like pizza every Friday night with folks.

It's not the case, man. A good relationship is just trust. It's simply that easy to comprehend the relationship side. It's just trust. Let's take two of option our scenarios. The first one would be like, I'm I'm a brand new salesperson. I just got to XYZ company, I'm selling LM op products. And I've been given like this list of accounts.

And I was supposed to call on these people. You know, a lot of the times what also happens for new segment reps is that they'll they'll be able to access, if not like, know who they currently do business with. Okay. Now most people hear me say that and they think, oh good, good Sunday. Also we'll call um, ABC plumbing and say, hey, we do business with XYZ plumbing around the corner.

I just want to introduce myself. No, what I'm saying is that you call up that existing client and say, hey, my name is Dale. I just started over here at ABC company. We help you with XYZ. Oh, hey. What's up Dale? Yeah. Now, this is a crazy question, but I was curious, like, how well are we doing for your business right now?

Are you guys are doing a great job. We're really happy with you. That's awesome. Um, I'm brand new to this sales gig. I don't have a lot of. I don't have any customers. I'm supposed to like cold call a bunch of people. And I thought instead, maybe I just introduced myself to some really decent folks and potentially, like, learn a little bit about their business model and see how I can apply that knowledge to the folks that I'm going to reach out to cold so that I have, you know, at least a little bit of like understanding of how the business operates.

Would you would you be willing to take a zoom call with me, or let me come on site and do a tour of your facility? And this is another conversation that VP of sales and managers are, like squirming, listening to, like, you're gonna have my people call my existing customers like, yes, if I'm going to be the greatest salesperson in the world, I'm going to leverage a network.

I'm going to go meet them. Guy who's going to take me through this business. We're going to have a great conversation. I'm going to see his Dan Marino, you know, Super Bowl champion thing on the wall. And I'm gonna I'm gonna go I hate I hate sports and I hate the NFL. But tell me more about that and learn about that guy.

Like genuinely in a caring and compassionate manner. And by the time I leave that office, two things are going to happen. One is that that dude is going to give me the most referrals of anybody I've ever met in my life. And second thing is, is that I'm going to ask that person point blank, hey, I know your competitor is XYZ company or plumbing or, you know, across the way.

Do you know anybody over there though? Would you be willing, like with what I've done for your business, do you think I'm like the best kept secret at this point and you're not willing to give me up? Or do you know somebody over there that you could potentially hook me up with? And this is the thing to Ray, is like a lot of people, a lot of people don't understand is the network they're trying to sell into all know each other, even if it's a cutthroat industry.

And in some instances, these guys sit at a at an annual event together once a year, you know.

Table to table and, you know, talk it up. And, and then they go on the boat and have a beer and, and they know each other really well.

And like, if I can get into that network, I'm opening the doors for so many things. My crumpled letter did that for me. So a lot of the times the doctor would say, hey, we got like 3 or 4 years left on our lease. I'd say, hey, I love that because it means that I can get to know your business a little bit better. I can get to know your network a little bit better, earn some trust with you, show you that I'm not a fly by night, you know, one hit wonder salesperson and really, like, put in the work.

Do you? Would you be willing to take me through your giant 250,000 square foot manufacturing facility and show me around? Yeah, sure. Man, actually, that sounds great. I've never done that with a salesperson. I opened so many doors, and I think that those are the types of, like, the first place I was. If I'm an existing rep, imagine dude.

Like, I if I'm an existing rep and I want to be a rebel, I'm just going to literally go and build my reputation out. I'm going to do good things for people that are already in my existing atmosphere hemisphere, stratosphere. How we want to look at that. I'm going to use that leverage of those relationships to go and like, sell to more people.

And I'm not at once going to crumple a piece of paper and doing that. I'm just going to have great, genuine, awesome conversations with folks, get to know them better and take it to the next level. So like a raw on a very raw narrative. That is how I see sales. So if you if you sprinkle.

In the idea.

Of like an experience, the excuse to not do things like send a crumpled butter are just that excuses. So when people say, ah, I can't do that, I live in another country. Well, there's some validity to that. I could make the effort to call a print shop in Lake Mary, Florida and say, hey, I've got 12 people in the local area that I'm trying to get in touch with.

I have this postcard I'd like to send them. How much would it cost me to have you guys do it locally right out of Lake Mary. If I send you all of the, the the components to that. That postcard. Yeah. 25 bucks, man shipped and everything. Cool. I think it's an excuse to say that we can't give an experience before we make the dial or send the email, and I would really just encourage reps, like thinking on that foundational level that the thing you're going to build in sales that's going to be permanent will be your reputation with other people.

It won't be your numbers for the year. Those things get completely wiped off the board January 1st of the following year. It won't be the relationship that you have with your sales manager, who fires everybody every 1.5 years into their tenure on average. It's it's not the stuff that people think is going to ultimately make them better or keep them in their job.

It is 1,000% that the person that's buying from you has to love you and trust you. It's that simple. And they don't have to love you like unconditionally, as if like they want to marry you. It's a simple word that I don't think we use enough that like having a platonic, if you will, relationship with people.

That's based out of this idea of like, I just want to genuinely do right by you is a form of love to me. And that salespeople, they think that that's too mushy and gushy and too hippie dippy are just not my people. So if you're listening to this and you don't like that, then get the f out of my my space man. Like I still love you and you're welcome here.

But who? But just just leave and go get to Grant Cardone or, you know, Jordan Belfort or one of those guys that's been in federal prison. That's more your style. You know, so but I would challenge people to just, like, open their mind just a little bit to this concept because I love the question and hopefully the narrative makes sense.

And I'd love to hear your thoughts on it obviously as well too. But at the same time it's like.

Don't make the.

Excuse of I can't send a crumpled letter in the mail. You absolutely can, no matter where you are.

So I love the, the, the whole context and the setup for my, you know, as I was thinking about telling you, it's the AI conversation. I think one of the, the, the challenge with people who are waiting for AI to replace salespeople and make everything easier in sales in general, like so, skip this whole thing.

They want to skip all this. They want they don't want to meet people. They don't want to talk to people. They don't want to build relationships like they want the they want the transaction. And they believe AI is going to automate the entire process of getting there. Because I'm pro AI just like you, man.

Like I use AI all the time, but within the house and within the business, there are very clear safeguards around it. And I think it ties back because AI by default makes everything faster, easier and cheaper. Well, what happens when you make everything faster, easier and cheaper is everyone starts doing it and so everyone's doing that in the prospecting world.

Hey, what happens when everyone starts doing something is it stops working? Like so it's a it's a natural progression to failure because let's assume you could get an outbound agent to make a thousand calls a minute right now, and I could pay somebody a hundred grand to set it up. If it was that easy and if it worked, everybody would do it within a very short period of time, which means everybody's getting hammered by the same AI bullshit calls.

And then. And then it stops working like it loses. Even if it did work, it doesn't work anymore. The way that you're framing this, like just sales in general, is it's not about faster, easier, cheaper. Like, in fact, if you slow it down on purpose and and you go deeper on it on purpose, that the conversion the ultimate conversion and probably, by the way, the experience of doing it is probably significantly better when you're meeting likable people and they're having cool conversations and you're getting emails that are like, hey, we actually enjoyed your prospecting.

Let's creative. That's fun. Like, how often does that happen in sales? Like that doesn't like when I'm sending cold emails and nobody ever emailed and said, wow, right. That's a really well written AI email like that was that was excellent. So I think it's it's differentiation by default because it's harder because it's it's more personalized because it takes a little bit of vulnerability and some risk to, to actually go do it.

And my, my question because as you're explaining it, my immediate thought was, well, I wonder if that only works for full cycle sales. Like if you're if you own beginning to end and if you step into a model that's the SDR, AI related that like does that break the whole cycle? But then I as I thought about it.

So we have a we have a fractional management program out of 65, says the top, the top people consistently over years are people who make fewer calls, are people who build pipeline over years like that, not looking at everything on a week to week campaign basis like the very best stars are setting appointments with people they started talking to a year and a half ago, two years ago, and they're doing a lighter version of what you're talking about, but still a more a closer version to real relationship.

Real connection, real people. Then, hey, I'm going to make 200 calls today on a parallel dialer and max my max my calls. Let's say you're the sales person who says, hey, we have somebody who a system or some agency or something books us appointments and they show up. Can I still incorporate your your philosophy to sales?

Great question. I think fundamentally, uh, sales is broken on a level that it would fail miserably for. The role you're talking about, like just a high volume SDR role, would fail miserably trying to execute on what we do. Although we do have people that in tandem do volume with the crumpled letter. And it's kind of funny to me because in most cases, what we hear them tell us is, man, this crumpled letter thing is working really well, but they still do their 10,000 weekly calls, which is just crazy to me.

Yeah, so I think a lot of people just can't get away from this addiction to volume because I think in most cases it's a scarcity problem. You know, no offense to all those people, but I really do think that that's the biggest issue that in their mind they think, yeah, but if we stop pressing so hard, you know, to get where we're trying to go, then we're going to, you know, we're going to ultimately we're going to lose.

Because, sure, the crumpled letter might bring us some business, but because it's not bringing it to us in mass quantities, it's it's not going to work. You know, like forever or and or it's not going to scale my business the way that I want it to. And I again, I just think it's like it's a fear issue more than anything because it's something you can tap into pretty easily.

You just get an 18 year old kid that knows no better, a.

21 year old kid that.

Just graduated college and is trying to find a job and tell them, get on this phone and dial until you die. And it's that simple. And so I, I think that that there is a way and a methodology to, like, get the role of SDR to be able to use, which I mean, we've had in the past. I mean, we had a guy in New Zealand, I can't say the name of the company.

Um, but his name was Mick and sorry, Australia. Oops. My bad. Uh, he was in Australia. He was still in $1 billion banks. Yeah. A software, um, that he was at. CTOs were his contacts and they were just getting nowhere doing cold calls. And this was right after the pandemic. People were just getting back like into their offices for the first time.

And he adopted the crumpled letter concept and did about 20 of them and had 17 conversations, set appointments and, and his own company said, hey, great job, man. But you didn't hit your your your dial volume, right?

Like legit. They like gave him a mark dude.

And and then they closed I think four. And on average the stars would close one a quarter. Like one qualified appointment would close from the SDR that came in from the SDR team, which was four people. And their total appointments, by the way, that they were supposed to set per month was three per SDR. So 12, they would set 12 appointments, they'd close one deal per quarter from that, like these guys closed three.

They set 12 appointments and like literally.

One.

Go of letters on for one rep. Right. So with the other reps combined, you know, whatever that number is, they set over 20. 25. And this guy got his hand slapped. So I again I just think fundamentally sales is broken there to the point that like I can't I can't tell you. Yes. So that answer that yes that role should be able to to adapt our mindset and methodology and be successful.

But for sure I can tell you that a full cycle sales rep should be able to put our stuff into into play immediately and see results. And they can still.

They can still make cold calls and send cold emails on top of it. They can they can just do less in the process because they'll see.

This other thing work for them very well and and get a feel for, okay, cool. This is what it's doing for my sales cycles, for the the community that I'm, I'm trying to set appointments within. This is how it's working. And so and then using that as leverage for all.

The other stuff that they're doing.

But I just don't think people can really think to that capacity because of the way that we manipulate salespeople and the leadership role inside of this, this industry in general, like throughout it from heavy machine sales to copiers to finances, I mean everything. I think it's all broken all the way through.

My first job was like, was it the US chamber? I was making main calls. It was like a hundred holiday minimum, and I got in trouble periodically because I would I was number three in the nation at the top, uh, revenue per sale at the top, uh, revenue per call. I like all these metrics. So I hit numbers as presents club, but I didn't hit the call minimums.

calls a day. I would do: 5560

Like, at the end of the day, let's just reverse engineer the outcome. If you can come in here and on 25 calls a day, get the numbers that we need. You're not. That's not a liability. I mean, that's an asset that's like that's that's me saying, hey, what are you doing? I should probably figure that out and do a whole lot more of that, because then the list that you have to your point not to beat up AI too much, but like 10,000 emails, most people's market can't sustain that for three weeks.

You know, like whereas the goal is to get the most out of your market, the most out of your list. And if I if you can triple, quadruple the revenue per call or revenue per lead on your list, that's a far better thing than hey, did you did you call them all surface level and and get through? So as you started telling this story, I wanted to pull my hair out.

It's a it's frustrating, but it's it's kind of lazy. Sales management. I've heard you say, uh, before or right, that when it comes to sales and hiring, um, it stood out. You said it. Basically, I'm paraphrasing that you'll hire anyone because experience your resume is not nearly as important as belief and willingness.

If, if I recall correctly. And let's take it for granted that that's that's true. So maybe give me a little context. But also, how do you know that about somebody before they start? Because experiencing an resume I can see it feels tangible, but these other things feel intangible and I'm not certain. So what's what's the context there?

I'm sure you've interviewed how many people have you interviewed in your lifetime? That's a good question right there.

Oh my God, I, I don't know I have no idea.

Yeah that's.

Right a thousand: 2000

Okay cool. That's good, that's good. So it's a lot right. It's kind of the idea that there are people that stick out in your head out of that thousand, that you could probably say their names and and you could do it. You could do it like from the time that you met them, as opposed to like the ones that you got to know over time.

There are certain people that stick out. So, so like, I want a dumb person. I know that sounds kind of like it. It sounds kind of mean, but I'm a dumb person, like, I don't really. It's not self-deprecation any extent. I just like I'm not a smart person, like, I, I'm literally I'm super curious. I don't pretend like I know everything and I'm okay with that.

I, I'm okay that, like, if somebody says something about the Roman Empire and I don't know anything about it, I'm okay saying like, hey, could you educate me on that? You know, like, I'm okay with that. Like, so when I'm interviewing some somebody when they're just, like asking genuine questions or if I say like, hey, what's the number one characteristic that you believe that you have that's going to make you a successful at sales?

And they say something like, I don't know. Um, that's a really good question, I guess, because I've never really thought about that. And they and maybe they say back like, well, what do you think I need in order to, to be that? I guess, you know, like that person is hired immediately, especially if their background is something gritty.

So like any of us that know industry, if I got a guy that was in sales and oil and gas, pretty gritty industry if I got a guy that that did sales in the copier space. It's a pretty gritty industry. If I got a guy not in traditionally, if I got a guy that like or did sales at a hotel

are probably not the best fit country club. Uh,

probably not the best fit. But like a server at a country club or a waiter at a hotel. Hmm. I'm interested again. I'm suddenly interested again, because it's about this idea of like, what do people have to deal with on a daily basis? Getting a glimpse of that is so important. And it's why, like, you know, some people would say, man, I'm looking at this guy's resume.

And he was like in landscaping sales. And then he worked at Circuit City. Throwback to Circuit City. And people go and people go. He's not qualified to sell medical devices, but I'll sit down with them and have like, you know, three questions for that person. And it's not like, why should I hire you? It's like, hey, what books are you reading right now?

It's like my first question in most interviews, and this might sound weird, but what books are you reading right now? You can like literally. This is something my my beautiful, amazing and awesome wife actually gave me the idea around because she's a she's in neuropsychology. That was her profession.

So she studied psychology. She went to college for many, many years. I was going to become get her doctorate in it actually, and then jumped out of it because she's like, this is a scam, and I'm going to do something different with my life, basically. But in the neuro psych world, like the study of the brain is very, very important to sales and ultimately, like what she used to do is she would catch people lying through questions that were very genuine or honest or kind of like a little off the wall to an extent, without being offensive or ultimately without being a question that people could sense as manipulative is the idea.

So if I ask you, like, what are you reading right now? There's nothing manipulative about that. As a matter of fact, it's just a genuine question. And so the way you answer it tells me everything I need to know about your character. And ultimately like whether or not you have the right mindset. So like if you're wondering, well, what are the what are the answers, you know, that caused you to hire somebody?

Like the first one would be if somebody goes, well, this is embarrassing, I guess because I don't know you, but I love the Harry Potter books, you know? So like, so like a 27 year old guy that, you know, like, is trying to get a sales position for the first time, you know, like, what an awesome, honest, genuine thing to say and way to answer as opposed to a guy.

It's like, yeah, you know, I, uh, I read a lot in high school, and I did a couple, a couple of business books and, you know, Dale Carnegie. Yeah, yeah, I read a couple of his. But, you know, like, those are the kind of answers that kind of just tell me that a person is afraid of what I might think about their answer, as opposed to the person that's just like, I don't read.

And I go, how come? And they tell me the truth. I just I have like a lack of attention. I start reading something and I just, like, immediately lose track. I'm like thinking a thousand things in my head. I can't, I just can't stick to the book. Brother, that tells me so much about you in that moment. And a good way.

In a really good way. Actually, like, I know that you suffer from a massive amount of Aids in that moment, and I know how to I know how to coach that. I know I have seen the most successful people in my life, uh, get through those moments of like, having issues with things like A.D.D. or introversion in their, in their sales work.

I'm not looking for the person that has this sick ass resume and costs extra money for me to hire them, although, like I would highly suggest, people seek those folks out to an extent and and bring them into their organizations. I believe that the people at mine are those people for sure. They're the best of the best in the industry, but I also think that they're under the rocks, that nobody would look their in the trash cans, that everybody was throwing their garbage away and and saying like, yeah, well, put your resume here.

It sucks. You know, like these are the those are the people I want. I want those people because they've also been told like, you're not good enough. What better way to make your comeback than to listen to that for interview after interview after interview and have somebody say, hey, I'm hiring you. And that has nothing to do with your resume and everything to do with you, and the idea of giving you a chance to prove everybody else wrong.

You have 12 months to do it.

What do you need from me? You know, like that? I think that's a powerful moment. I took a kid in the copier world. I think he worked. I was a bagger at Publix, and then he went and worked for a copier company, and they burnt him to the to the ground. And then he went into advertising sales. Terrible transition, in my opinion.

Shout out if you're listening to this, my man. But I met him because he wanted to get out of it. He's like, oh man, advertising space sucks, you know? And and and he's.

Like, I don't know about going back into.

Copiers, but I looked at his resume and thought about where he'd been and, and understood his his competence, his greenness, if you will, and just his general drive and desire to be a better person. And I took that chance, and he was the guy that answered a lot of the questions, like I just pointed out, in ways that were so Genuine and curious and and and tale told me like, this guy's extremely coachable.

And within 30 days he made his first sale with us. And we then I want to say like 120 days. He had made more in commission than he ever made in his life. And by the end of the year, he made his first six figures. That guy is now a VP of sales for two different companies, like as a fractional person, and he's got five kids, beautiful wife, incredible life.

And he built that through somebody taking a chance on him to give him the opportunity to prove himself. And now it's been proven and he can do anything he wants. Right. So I think it's also a moment for us to be selfless as leaders and to say, you know what, it's okay if I fail and I picked the wrong person that's on me and I should be able to live with that.

But it's not okay if I try to to protect my reputation because I want to look good, or ultimately because I want I want something out of it. But if I can detach myself from those things and say, hey, I'm willing to take a risk, I'm willing to have my boss tell me, you idiot! What were you thinking? You know, because I.

I want to believe in other people. I think that that's the best way to hire folks entirely.

So I'm very introverted. I was really shy before. Before sales. Silly. I'm like, to an extent, but like the. I went into my first interview and I bombed. Like, it was terrible. It was. It was at the chamber and I it was first real job, man. I was going to get a salary. They have benefits like so I was nervous and I'm excited.

I'm in like a cheap coal suit. You know, it probably doesn't fit right. And I he does the whole like sell your pin thing and it's clear I know that I bombed the interview. So we're walking out and he said something about at the time it was Jim Jeffords. And there would be no big political organization. And I just went on a monologue about Jim, and I was like, well, you know, boop boop.

Boop boop boop boop boop boop.

And he stopped, were walking towards the door, literally. And he goes, can you do that on the phone? And I and I said, yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. And he said, let's. Let's try it. And you know, so I and I, I got my that was my first real sales job. Ended up being a manager. Stayed there for for a decade, but I was I didn't fit.

Like it wasn't like I said, it was introverted as quieter, but I, I gave a shit about what I was selling. Like that's the only reason I was there anyway. I didn't even want to do sales. I thought sales was like, yeah, I'll do that thing to go do like a real job, but I didn't really want to do it. 15 years later, I left the chamber.

I loved sales, didn't like politics anymore, and I was because I got that shot. It's kind of the way that I hired to, like, I'm looking for the same, the same unorthodox type of type of hire. That's that's not necessarily by the book. I've heard you talk a lot about your dad and, you know, and he's passed. I know he's hugely influential on you or seems to be from a lot of your messaging, a lot of your content, the interviews.

What would he think about Sales Rebellion today? What would he think about the state of sales today?

I would tell you that the majority of what influences my outlook on sales is, is timeless teachings. And because I do believe there are some things that never change is as much as we would wish to ourselves to an extent that they would to make life easier

or more unlockable, if you will. I do think that there are some things that are just timeless that they never change, and I think one of those things is the principle of servant leadership. I think that the person who goes out and sacrifices the most is the happiest in life. It doesn't mean that that's the person that has the most money.

It doesn't mean that that's the person that has the most power. It doesn't mean that that's the person that has the most control. But I look at all those things is the same. And like, people probably started with the money and thought like, oh, that kind of sucks. And then they heard the next two things. They were like, well, that's kind of like it almost sounds like an evil person to an extent.

And I'm not saying that money is a bad thing. Right. But I am saying that when we put our focus on what the status quo tells us success is, and that the society and the world tells us that we should be focused on. Most of it feels as if it's really like boxing us in to only valuing ourselves as people based on perceived success by the standard of the community, based on works that that produce is the thought process, and not the kind of works that produce like loyalty or a really cet outcome for another person and not ourselves.

But instead it's this. It's a very selfish mindset. It's a very go get the thing that you need mindset. It's also like the world would say, like we need Elon Musk's, we need Jeff Bezos, we need Mark Cuban's, you know, we need those people. We need those people that everybody hates that make tons of money because they'll a fuel the world and the economy and you know, so that was like a it's acceptable to kind of just like a scumbag to an extent is the, the thought process and all that.

And and like, I know I'm deviating from sales here a little bit, but I think that like who we are as people defines our success. And then ultimately the servant leaders, the people that don't need to be at the forefront of things, that don't need to be winning all the time, that are okay with loss, that are okay with risk, that are okay with discomfort, are the people who win the most.

Because what happens is, is that in the midst of like those thousand dials that that salesperson makes with a servant leader's heart, that one person is heavily affected by the conversation that they have or the experience that they give. And that person, that one person could literally be someone who changes the world just because you put a bug in their ear.

That moment, I think my dad would look at what we're doing and he would just thumbs up it with both hands and like, legitimately and and be in a moment. Like from his own POV of Of

feeling as if I have mirrored a lot of the things that he believed and stood for. To begin with, I truly believe that. Mostly because I studied my father like, uh, like a weirdo. Like, I, I know my dad very well, I know that. That's a great example. I remember at 5 a.m. getting up and thinking, like, I'll show him.

I'll get up before him, or I'll get up liking it before he can wake me up. It's kind of the idea. And and I remember, like, being down in the kitchen and he wasn't coming down, and I just thought to myself, like, did I beat him? I'm gonna go talk some smack and and wake him up. And as I'm going up the stairs, I see a light like one of the lamps in the room kind of thing.

Not the bright ones, just like a soft light. And I walked to the top of the stairs, and I stand there and just stared

as I.

Watched my dad.

Kneel down on the side of my bed and of his bed, where my mother was asleep. I'm talking like on a bended knee. And he had a devotional out and he was reading it to her. And then he prayed over her and he kissed her on the cheek. She was her eyes were closed and he walked downstairs and I watched that whole thing.

I got to the point he didn't hear me even coming up the stairs. I was real sneaky, but I just like, peeked my head up and I watched that whole thing happen, and I thought to myself, like,

one day my dad won't be here anymore, and there'll be two people that know that he does that. Me, because I snuck a peek, and my mom because she probably begrudgingly allowed it to happen. And oh, God, why? Why it's so early, you know, and I and I say that in jest. I'm sure she absolutely cherished those moments that he created for her.

And so when he when he looks at the sales rebellion, if he was here today. Right, I know he would see that. But those things like we we are the people that ultimately like I didn't name this company Dale Dupree Sales training and no, no hey to anybody the names their company after them to any capacity. But I don't want the spotlight.

I want the rebels at the forefront of it. I want to open the door for people that are passionate about life, that are passionate about differentiation, that are passionate about people, that love the idea of like entertainment or the arts or creativity inside of our daily walk. Because of that, it allows us to connect more with one another.

It allows us to have more fulfillment and happiness in our walk. I would empower those people. I don't want them to think that there's a ringleader. I want them to think that they are the most important thing, and I want them to believe that, too. I want them to feel that deeply. I want to heal the sick, you know, essentially the sick salesperson, the one that thinks that they can never get out of the rut that they're in, the one of the things they can never get over the depression they suffer from, the one that thinks that they could never be better than who they are today, and that they should just get out of sales in the first place.

I want to be a door that opens for those people. I want to be a pillar in the community, but not Dale Dupree. I just want them to see rebellion and think to themselves like, hey, maybe this is a place I could call home and and find myself again. That, to me is the mission that we're on. And ultimately, you know, the fruit of that, bro, is is a lot of the stuff that you said earlier.

I mean, you mentioned it. You said, man, if I got responses from people that said things like, hey, thanks for this really creative thing means a lot. You know, that's ten times better than getting an email that says, unsubscribe me, you effing POS. You know, like bro, the kind of stuff that we watch on LinkedIn of people posting, like, it's great to be in sales with a screenshot of somebody telling them to eff off and die.

You know, I mean, that's the one thing that I think it sucks about reading those things is I'm like, we don't have to live in this. You know? We don't. We can go. We can go and engage people differently, change the stereotype of sales from negative to something that people enjoy and that activates differently.

But I also kind of like it as a minority. I'm just going to say that I like being in a rebellion. That's just a small group of people out here doing our thing. Having a lot of fun and changing the game. So. So hopefully that answers the question that I think. You know, I think my dad would be like in the room enjoying every moment of it.

But that ultimately, like he would just he would see the things principally that he drove into me through his teachings and the way that he he showed me life through his own experiences.

It's a really incredible story. How how do you how do you reconcile not needing the credit and not being the center of attention with the the role of content, because you and I both create? I mean, we're here, we're doing a podcast, we're talking, we post on LinkedIn, we share content, we're creating attention for ourselves and thus trying to push it to something.

But for what I'm asking personally, if for somebody that doesn't actually like social media but feels a need to from a not from a brand perspective, but make people aware of the thing. How do you reconcile those two things, not needing the attention and the credit with putting yourself out there on a on a consistent basis.

Yeah. Fantastic question. I try to be as relatable as I possibly can to someone else's story. So if I tell my story, I try to do it in a way that doesn't put me on a pedestal ultimately, but that that creates a moment for someone else that when they when they see the thing that I am, that they say, you know what, I can't.

That resonates with me. I've I've experienced something similar. You know what? I love my dad, too. Or even the people that are that say, hey, Dale, I never had a relationship with my dad like you did. What you're saying really resonates with me, because it makes me want to be a better dad to my kids and and reinforces, like, my whole thought that I can be a better dad to my kids, just like yours was for you.

And and like, that's really the goal. Like, the goal is to to get people in a position where, you know, people send me text all the time. They say, like, dude, I did the crumpled letter at work. Thank you so much. And I always respond back and say, I don't know why you're thanking me. You did that? You went out and took that risk.

You went out and faced that discomfort. That's all. You. You. Let's celebrate. You. Great job. Keep up the good work. Pass it on to somebody else. Right. Is the idea. So I as much as I possibly can. I think content draws people in in a way that they can relate. That's really the goal of all my content. Just to make people smile.

Relate. Laugh a little. Think this guy's nuts a little. And in their mind also saying to themselves, like, I like that. Ultimately, through content, we can accommodate people, then we're doing our job, you know, or offend them to some extent as well to I do believe that that's a huge component to this. I do think that I because I think that that if people taking offense to folks that are out there authentically and genuinely speaking, are, are literally just in denial of the truth, and they need that accountability, or they hear something that they don't like and that hurts them or offends them, and they need to hear more of it because it's the reality of the people around them.

And that the more that we can help people to feel like comfort through that truth, even if they never agree with it. Which is totally fine, because it doesn't. It doesn't mean that just because, you know, it hurts that it's it's it's not just like my experience or my story or, hey, let's just call it a truth to me, if you will, all right?

It doesn't mean that it has to ultimately be theirs as well, too. But the goal in that and that offense is really to make a person think like, yeah, but this is another perspective in life. I don't have to hate this. I can I don't have to be a dick in the comments. I don't have to like, let this hurt my feelings.

I can indulge the kind of guy. If you know me, you know me deals the kind of guy that can handle me, like giving him a little bit of pushback or some harsh criticism, or I'm all about it. Tell me I suck. Tell me I'm not good at something. Tell me you think something differently of me. I'm okay with that. I'm totally fine with that.

And I. I think that's the point of consent. The point of consent is to help other people grow. The good and the bad, no matter how you spin it. And and I hope that that takes me out of the equation to an extent for people over time, because I hope that what happens is they hold themselves accountable. So like the things they disagree with or that it makes them say to themselves like, yeah, okay, Dale told me about this crumpled letter, but if I don't go do it, if I don't take the action, if I don't take the risk, if I don't become uncomfortable and do it, then it'll never happen.

So it's about me.

Offending people periodically. It paves the way for others to go, hey, I always thought that same thing. So like a like the the example. It's funny. I see your your the algorithm tells me, Dales commented periodically. And you have you notice like you'll say comment clod or something like say you joke on the AI stuff.

Well, if you notice from a content standpoint the threads on people who post, hey, I sent 10,000 emails or I replaced my whole SDR team with with AI. If you look in the comments, the number of people who are saying bullshit, man, Show the receipts. Like, what's the actual outcome? Like what's this? As is growing, right?

There's an increasing number of people that are saying, I don't believe this anymore. Like this A year ago, this sounded pretty plausible, but nobody's talking about the actual results. And it takes a handful of people like you and others and to say, hey, that's not true. Right. And then other people can go, dude, I've been using AI to try to do the same thing, and it sucks.

Like it didn't do that. So it's I think in some ways it paves the way for others to kind of raise their hand and go. They allows kind of thinking the same thing. Man. Last question. Uh, for servant leadership in sales as you're talking. The question I have is do you do you have to love what you're selling to sell the way that you see sales, or at least who you're selling for?

Do you have to have, like, some degree of authentic. I'm here to help. I'm here to spread. Good. I'm here to do this. Like in order to do that? Or can you work at any copier shop, or does it have to be a legitimately good coffee shop? Like what's your what's your take?

It's a great that's a great question to an eye, because I do think this one is important that it's it is it honestly if you don't love what you do. And here's the thing that I want to I want to caveat this with is that, like, so some people are like, you love copy machines. Well, uh, sort of like not in a weird way.

Yes, but you want to know why I love copy machines? Because copy machines pushed me to my limits. Copy machines at told me I'm the hardest thing you'll ever sell. Did you see what just happened? Right there? You see that lady yelling at you? Did you see that? It took you, like, 400 conversations to finally sell something to somebody in, like, a conference and manner like coffee machines really pushed my limits and like, it goes so it goes beyond the product to an extent.

You do have to have a belief in the product. I will say that like if the copy machine doesn't work, or you sell like a crappy brand of one. Get the hell out of there and find the better ones, right? Like so. There needs to be like your service needs to back it up. You need to understand those parts of your sales career.

Uh, to be true, uh, you know, other, you know, the accountability of the company, you know, keeping its word, the product itself being something that people desire and that helps them. I think these things are important, but you're never going to know that right up front, too. So I just I want to make sure that I say that out loud, that like, if you go an interview with a company and you're like, yo, this looks sick and these products are great, and then you, I promise you, you'll probably find out nine months in, like, oh my God, I've been selling it this way and it never works this way.

What's going on with that? And your boss will go. Yeah. Just kind of like something that is. Everybody does it, you know? So you gotta you gotta also be open minded in the fact that even if you're in love with a company and love with a product, that there could be flaws that you'll find out down the road. But I do genuinely believe that it goes beyond the product.

I think it's the love for the game, and the game is life. So it's this love for this thing that's going to push your limits. So like people that say things like, I want to work at Gong or I want to work at, you know, ADP, I probably shouldn't even say that one because most people don't want to work there anymore.

But, you know, like, I want to work at this big company with a big name that everybody knows, you know, because it creates comfort for you. Because when people pick up your cold calls and you say where you're calling from, that they go, hey, what's up? I'm busy. But, you know, I know your company. You know, in their minds is some capacity, right?

Like, if you're doing things to make, it's selling things to make your life easier. I think that you're you're shooting yourself in the foot or on the experiences that you could have curated for you to become a legend inside of what it is that you're trying to build, and that people should stop trying to shortcut that part of their, their, their walk and their adventure that they should be open to.

Like getting into the blue collar industries, selling an aerospace, selling and plumbing, selling an A track, selling in distribution and freight, selling in hardware like copy machines and and not like trying to look for like the sexy job where they they will believe in the product. More like you'll never know if you actually love something until you go and experience it to begin with.

So I think it's just like any relationship, it has to. You have to take a leap of faith into the process. So hopefully that answers the question.

Well it does man. Well, it's the probably the theme of this conversation. It's been like don't shortcut it. There's a there's a lot of value in not trying to shortcut it. And I appreciate you. You're copping on appreciate your time. Would love to to jam with you again anytime brother. And thanks again. Where can people find you if they want to find you they'll.

Yeah, they can just go to the Sales rebellion.com or Google Dale Dupree. I'm on all content channels LinkedIn.com backslash and backslash copier warrior at Dale, rebel leader on most other content channels, or just Google Dale Dupree. You know, like I said, Facebook, you'll find me. I'd love to see anybody that wants to learn more about the rebellion to show up in my feeds.

Love my brother. Appreciate coming by.